I wish I'd known that before...

[DaVinci's Cat]

In the interest of attempting getting better at Malifaux (hopefully giving a bit of a leg up to those starting or thinking about starting), and along with the fact that the games are generating some interesting discussions (normally in the Club Night section), I thought it might be useful to have a centralised thread to discuss our games, note scores, Schemes and Strategies, clarify/admit to errors, share any experiences we had that might be useful for others, and bask in the glory of multiple Red Jokers, ricocheting shots killing totems and enemy henchman beating themselves in their face with their own weapons.

I won't 'transfer' any of the previous comments in at the moment, but happy to do so if others want.

Looking forward to hearing about all the Bad Things That Happen...

[Brad85]

This will be a handy retrospective resource. Been watching a few battle reports so have learned some things I wouldn't have realised before.

[DaVinci's Cat]

As I suggested this , the following are my views on last nights match-up with Tom. Although I'm not sure that knowing the stuff I now know, would make much difference...

Lucius vs Kirai
Strategy: Corrupted Ley Lines
Scheme Pool: Breakthrough, Assassinate, Outflank, Research Mission, Death Beds.
Lucius went for Breakthrough and Outflank, Kirai took Assassinate and Breakthrough.

Tom came packing a red-taped focussed Lucius crew, full of investigators, false witnesses, lawyers and general associated low-life (I wonder if Wyrd will do an Estate Agent?) with a Doppelganger for good measure. I racked up with a mish-mash of Urami, clearly with a view of summoning in what I needed according to the situation.

We managed to get through 3 turns before having to call it on time, more on that later, but it ended at a 3-3 tie, each scoring 2 on strategy and 1 on schemes, with both of us already in position to score a 3rd strategy point each at the end of the next turn. If weā€™d managed to play it out, I think it would probably have remained tied (6-6?), or there would have been a last gasp/black joker flip type affair to settle it by a single point.

Well, this certainly wasnā€™t the murder-fest that Lucius was involved in in the previous week. In fact, the only casualty in 3 turns was a false witness (although the scribe was down to 1 wound) and this was the prime reason we ended up calling it on time as turns clearly werenā€™t getting any shorter. If anything, with my summoning they were only getting longer!

Thoughts and Reflections

Wyrd has clearly done an awesome job of making the lawyers and bureaucrats. play out like lawyers and bureaucrats, and Tom does play the crew very, very well. It seemed like the largest damage output came from a rubber stamp and some light paper cuts but conversely, they were excellent at preventing very much damage (if any) going back through the other way; which was mildly frustrating!

Two things about the Elite keyword that really stood out for me.
1) was the insane amount of card draw that the crew had, which allowed
2) the (almost) continual negative flip on opposed duels, which in turn prevents any cheating. Yes, I flipped some good ā€˜pairsā€™ but had to rely on that and the hope that Tom had a pants control hand. The lack of ability to cheat in anything at key times was quite painful.

Out of this, I really need to get my head around the card draw mechanic and see if there is anything I can throw a spanner at.
I also need to fine a way past the incessant negative flip duels. I feel that focussing up is just too inefficient but also far too risky if there is any condition removal around. Ideally to get around this, and I tried to a degree, was to get either a Goryo or Onryo killed in close proximity to something I wanted to get rid of. This would have thrown out adversary (plus flips all-round!) negating the card disposal shenanigans or serene countenance, but as mentioned earlier, this is easier said than done, especially when your opponent only brings rubber stamps and silk gloves to hit you with. Consistently, this small amount of damage was negated by my incorporeal, which meant even vengeance didnā€™t trigger! It was like nobody wanted to hurt anyone. I don't think Tom put more than one or two wounds on my whole crew.

It is quite possible that I picked the wrong schemes, not so much breakthrough, but certainly Assassinate on Lucius is not the easiest (lesson learnt) but conversely, with all of his scheme marker shenanigans, attempting 2 scheme marker heavy schemes seemed like handing victory over from the start. It might also be 2 very evenly balanced counters/techy-crews going head to head - each with an effective counter to the other.
I also realise that killing stuff is not always the way to win, however, it does tend to slow down an opponent and reduce the available resources with which to achieve strats and schemes. Iā€™d be very interested if anybody has got any ideas or had the same experience.

From the Kirai perspective, good placement with the Seishin and sensible activation order meant that despite having 3 summons wandering around, the damage I was taking due to that was very manageable. If she had come under a bit more ā€˜physicalā€™ pressure, the outcome might have been a little different. Iā€™m still weighing up the options on which 2 of the following 3 to take as part of the core, shikome, goryo or Jaakuna. This was Jaakunaā€™s first outing so probably needs some more playtime, as it did end up tarpit vs tarpit with Alan Reid in the centre of the board this time around.

Overall, a really challenging and enjoyable game against a well-played opposing crew. It took me quite a while to get to sleep as my head was still spinning into the early hours.

[Dave]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, some interesting points.

Lucius is a git, Iā€™m probably 1 in 10 against Tom and that 1 was last weekā€™s game!

I try and overwhelm with number of attacks so he drains his hand, chain activate so he canā€™t replenish it between attacks and some way of getting focus/positive attack flips without taking the focus action (so for me it was Howard eating scrap markers and gunsmiths with built in positives). Lawyers are only 6 Wounds Def 4 so once you get past the negative flip element they go down.

[DaVinci's Cat]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, some interesting points.

No problems Also helps me crystallise my thoughts.

Absolutely agree with your methodology - I got close to a number of attacks that started to pressure the control hand, and did start eating through Tom's soulstone pool, but had no way of sustaining it to be able to apply any lasting impact. The built in positives thought hit a note and made me wonder whether or not Youko might be a good counter, especially with some of her card draw mechanics and Hinamatsu, but then we stray into finding a different crew rather than a solution with this one, and that would mean more painting

Having had a further look through my cards, Kirai's crew have very, very limited means of getting focussed onto models. Certainly not enough to act as a meaningful counter and as alluded to in the previous post, that particular crew is a rock to my rock - scissors and paper don't even get a look in . It might be that I have to play a little bit more conservatively in the opening turn and get focus on to everything, but it just feels wrong!

When thinking about your suggestions, I previously mentioned that the lack of being able to cheat really hurt, but realised it wasn't the ability to put in higher numbers especially, it was the fact that I couldn't dictate what triggers I could use - it was purely on the flip of a top-decked card. I perhaps hadn't appreciated how important that actually is.

Lawyers are only 6 Wounds Def 4 so once you get past the negative flip element they go down.

I hadn't especially twigged the Def 4 as I was probably more focussed on the 5 Wd False Witness with more defensive tech than Israel! It's worth remembering, 5 or 6 Wds only go down quickly if you've got some min 3 beater or the ability to add damage due to triggers (hence my point above). The False Witness only went down due to a Red Joker irreducible damage flip.

I have to say, I'm super impressed with False Witness for 5 SS, why would you not take a min of two? OK, damage output isn't too much to shout about but the rest of the tech is just great - area control, scheme marker shenanigans, cheat denial, manipulative. It just all adds up to a really annoying model for your opponent and a decently capable control model for you.

I was expecting to see either the Rifleman or Agent 46, but Tom chose well. Either of these would admittedly cause problems, but nothing that can't be neutralised/tarpitted/seriously hindered with some expendable summons, especially as they have relatively less defensive tech that the rest of the keyword.

It's also worth not losing sight of the fact that this was a good, challenging, well matched game. A change of a model or two on either side, or a change of scheme pool could completely change the complexation of the outcome and discussion.

[Dave]

Having had a further look through my cards, Kirai's crew have very, very limited means of getting focussed onto models.

When thinking about your suggestions, I previously mentioned that the lack of being able to cheat really hurt, but realised it wasn't the ability to put in higher numbers especially, it was the fact that I couldn't dictate what triggers I could use - it was purely on the flip of a top-decked card. I perhaps hadn't appreciated how important that actually is.

You donā€™t seem to have any henchman(?). Being able to Stone for a positive (turning negative to straight) might be desperate but itā€™s something.

I have to say, I'm super impressed with False Witness for 5 SS, why would you not take a min of two? OK, damage output isn't too much to shout about but the rest of the tech is just great - area control, scheme marker shenanigans, cheat denial, manipulative. It just all adds up to a really annoying model for your opponent and a decently capable control model for you.

They are great, however manipulative goes after they have activated (so Activation control is big) and their no cheat bubble is only 3ā€, ranged attacks are what you need and looking at Kirai she doesnā€™t seem to have much ranged.....

You appear to have access to loads of cheap minions maybe take that approach (depending on schemes).

It's also worth not losing sight of the fact that this was a good, challenging, well matched game. A change of a model or two on either side, or a change of scheme pool could completely change the complexation of the outcome and discussion.

Thatā€™s why we love Malifaux. I touched on it before my game that I do think I need to think better about crew selection to match scheme choice rather than ā€œI have these models to use so will shoehorn them in some how!ā€

[DaVinci's Cat]

You donā€™t seem to have any henchman(?). Being able to Stone for a positive (turning negative to straight) might be desperate but itā€™s something.

Only had Datsue Ba and she's much more of a support piece than a beater. I think I did actually end up stoning when attacking Alan Reid, but with all the other tech going on in the middle, it was pretty futile. I can take Manos, but he's OOK and not really sure if he would have added anything extra this time around.

...ranged attacks are what you need and looking at Kirai she doesnā€™t seem to have much ranged.....

She does have some ranged (projected voice, weigh sins and spirit barrage) and they're generally around 2/3/4 but they're all pretty much Stat 5 Wp duels, which against this particular opponent set-up, was a tough gig. What this probably highlights (and is the point of this thread) is I attacked the wrong targets with the wrong tech. But this is all about learning what your crew does well and not so well.

On the face of it, a ranged Wp attack against the False Witness may be better than throwing a ruthless Shikome at it, freeing that up to have a pop at the Def 4 Lawyers and Def 5 Investigators. I'll have to try it out next time!

I touched on it before my game that I do think I need to think better about crew selection to match scheme choice rather than ā€œI have these models to use so will shoehorn them in some how!ā€

I am beginning to do this a lot more. I certainly tried to build my core crew around getting about the board pretty quickly whilst being able to attempt to tarpit the opponent. Whilst I didn't fully manage the tarpitting, we were both ahead of the curve in terms of Strategy points so weren't chasing the game in that respect which I'm going to take as a positive.

I think Kirai is a bit of a 'Swiss Army Knife' crew - she looks like she can take on all the strategies and most schemes pretty well with the same core crew. I then just summon in what's needed at the time to attempt to deny my opponent. At the moment from my perspective, it's looking like she struggles when trying to combat the negative flip and there are probably other, as yet undiscovered, combos that can shut her down but we'll have to wait and see.

I'd like to try (obviously strategy dependent) maybe ditching Jaakuna and the shikome with killer instinct and instead going with 2 Goryo with Grave Spirits Touch in the starting crew. This might ease some of the summoning requirements with the advantage of adding in some terrifying.

[Tom]

It was a great game indeed.

I think my lack of killing power would have caused increasing issues over time as you continued to summon more and more forces in, though it did mean I was making out like a bandit with the pass token card draw. Investigators/Alan can be quite mean but need to work in pairs to get the bonus damage for a Staggered enemy and they had scattered across the board.

I also think I chose my schemes poorly as both outflank and breakthrough require me to be in too many places at once to score the end of game points.

Perhaps I should have also gone for the Assassinate what with Kirai hurting herself with summons, but I was put off by her ability to dump attacks off on nearby friends and expected her to have a chunky bodyguard.

And donā€™t send The Scribe and Lucius in different directions! Letting Lucius get bogged down in melee was a silly error when The Scribe could have saved him fairly easily.

[Brad85]

I touched on it before my game that I do think I need to think better about crew selection to match scheme choice rather than ā€œI have these models to use so will shoehorn them in some how!ā€

I am beginning to do this a lot more. I certainly tried to build my core crew around getting about the board pretty quickly whilst being able to attempt to tarpit the opponent. Whilst I didn't fully manage the tarpitting, we were both ahead of the curve in terms of Strategy points so weren't chasing the game in that respect which I'm going to take as a positive.

This was the problem I was seeing with only having the Misaki box + Archers (alongside getting used to the rules), I was more looking at the models I had and trying to figure out how to fit them to the schemes and strategy. Instead I'm now spoiled for choice But being able to look at the schemes and think "which model(s) will achieve this? and who can back them up?" is weirdly satisfying.

[Dave]

What side of the table does the central strategy marker count as being in for the purposes of scoring schemes?

Iā€™m specifically thinking of Research Mission but Iā€™m sure there are others.